François-Xavier Roth, Musical Director of the Gürzenich Orchestra Cologne, will conduct Die Soldaten the legendary opera by Bernd Alois Zimmermann, in Cologne, Hamburg, and Paris. He discusses this extraordinary yet still too little-known composer.
Antoine Lévy-Leboyer (ALL): I have travelled to Cologne to hear Die Soldaten. I think it’s an exceptional work and I would like to discuss its composer Bernd Alois Zimmermann with you.
François-Xavier Roth (FXR): Wonderful! And you’re not alone. Many are fascinated by this work and come specifically to hear it.
ALL: When Pierre Boulez returned to France in the 70s, we were fortunate to discover a plethora of modern composers, but not Zimmermann. I didn’t come across him until 2012 at the Salzburg Festival (review here). Could I ask how you discovered him and what your journey was to get to know him?
FXR: Certainly, I was aware of Zimmermann when I was a student in Paris. I had heard of Die Soldaten, the Requiem for a Young Poet. Indeed, for Zimmermann’s generation, which included composers like Boulez, Maderna, Berio, and Stockhausen, his music was somewhat sacrificed in the name of postwar avant-garde.
However, I truly discovered Zimmermann’s music when I arrived in Cologne in 2015. There was talk at the time of staging a new production of Die Soldaten to celebrate his anniversary. I met his daughter Bettina, who became a friend. I discussed Zimmermann’s work with numerous specialists, including Peter Reiner. I also got to know his music through the orchestra, which had played a lot with him, as well as through students like York Holler, a composer whose work aligns with mine here in Cologne.
It’s true that Zimmermann remains somewhat unknown to many as a twentieth-century composer. He had a very singular personality, and his work at the radio here at WDR [Westdeutscher Rundfunk Köln], where he contributed to developing musical collage and other innovations, continues to raise questions about his place in the twentieth century.
ALL: Can you explain how you prepare for such a demanding work?
FXR: The score is very rich and dense. In Die Soldaten, Zimmermann expressed everything he worked on and thought about throughout his life. I think it might be the work of his life, both in terms of the libretto and the depth of expression. It reflects his own life and suffering. The music presents various facets. For instance, the overture, the first prelude, can be compared to the last act, the opening of the last act, the rape scene, the casino, etc. Extremely dissonant, complex, almost anarchic music, with countless layers. At times, musicians play up to seven or eight different rhythms at once. This music is what one might call ‘cluster’, dissonant, complex, almost anarchic.
Then, there’s a large part of the work that is very chamber-like in writing, comparable to the music of Webern, Boulez, or Berio, extremely pointillist where every note has its place. This is a huge contrast to the previously mentioned dissonant music. Moreover, there are show-stopping passages, like the first scene in the café with the soldiers in the second act, where Zimmermann creates a polyphony of action and discussion in the music, a technique that had never been heard before 1965. There’s a contrapuntal profusion that echoes the theatrical action. There are also moments like in the third act with the countess, where Zimmermann invents fluid music with overlapping rhythms and absolutely fascinating string legato, which has a hypnotic effect on the audience.
So, there are different facets to this work, and for preparation, one must understand these different worlds, as each part is like a work of art. Then, one must build. This work cannot be rehearsed like others. It requires a lot of rehearsal time, meticulous preparation of the groups, and total commitment.
ALL: Regarding the vocal part, you mentioned its complexity. Could you tell us more about that?
FXR: Indeed, the vocal part presents significant challenges. Vocal balance is not easy to achieve, especially in large venues like those in Paris or Hamburg. I sometimes use slight amplification for the singers to help them dialogue with the orchestra, as some passages are challenging to render in a concert version. Singers face multiple challenges, particularly regarding pitch and the tone rows used as compositional material, which complicates intonation. The rhythm is extremely complex, and memory is severely tested. Many singers have been performing this work for a long time, and it requires an investment of time, energy, and patience that deserves our admiration.
I must highlight the role of Marie, which is perhaps the most demanding and longest. Emily Hindrichs is truly exceptional; she has mastered the score to the point of singing it with a freedom and mastery worthy of a Mozart opera. It is just remarkable.
But it’s not just the singers, the instrumentalists and everyone involved in Die Soldaten show extraordinary commitment. The preparation and overcoming of difficulties are integral to the interpretation of this work, and this translates into a unique energy that reaches the audience.
During the recent general rehearsal, the collective emotion was indescribable. Speaking about it deeply moves me. I think that in Wagner’s time, when he was mounting Parsifal or Die Meistersinger, there must have been a similar transcendence of difficulties. It brings a unique and human dimension to the interpretation.
ALL: Do your musicians appreciate the work beyond the performance? Has it now become part of their musical identity?
FXR: It’s an interesting question regarding the orchestra because it’s the same orchestra that premiered Die Soldaten in 1965. Back then, it was particularly challenging. My predecessor, Günter Wand, oversaw the concerts at the time and had led intrigues against Zimmermann’s music. I even believe that a large part of the orchestra had expressed resistance, calling it incomprehensible noise and too difficult to play. Yet Zimmermann was a strong local figure, which might explain some of these reluctances. The rehearsals were very difficult, and I would have been uncomfortable attending them.
When we revived the work in 2018, the musicians were anxious and wondering if they would succeed. The first rehearsals were chaotic, to be honest. However, with patience, things improved. At the time, I spoke a lot with the musicians, who shared their vulnerabilities and fears. The performances were successful, and they understood that this music, when properly prepared and played, makes complete sense.
Today, thanks to those 2018 performances and subsequent ones, this work is one of the orchestra’s prides. An orchestra that premiered Till Eulenspiegel by Richard Strauss, Mahler’s Fifth Symphony, Brahms’s Double Concerto, etc., now considers Die Soldaten as an emblematic work. Zimmermann is now recognised in Cologne, as well as by our WDR colleagues, and his music has become a true musical identity for our city.
During his lifetime, after the war, Zimmermann suffered from competition with Stockhausen, but today, he is even more positively regarded by professionals and the public. It’s a very encouraging sign.
ALL: If we don’t have the opportunity to hear Die Soldaten which other works of Zimmermann would you recommend?
FXR: Zimmermann was a prolific composer who explored various musical genres. For those wanting to discover his universe, I would first recommend listening to his Music for King Ubu’s Dinner. It’s an accessible work that borrows elements from different musical styles. One can appreciate his talent for pastiche and collage, as well as subtle humour and sarcasm. Otherwise, his Violin Concerto incorporates South American rhythms and is also very approachable.
On the other hand, there’s the Requiem for a Young Poet, the Sonata for Viola solo, the Symphony in one movement, the Concerto for oboe and chamber orchestra, and a work for two pianos and orchestra. All of these can immerse you in Zimmermann’s universe.
ALL: You have worked extensively on colour in French music. What does a German orchestra bring to this work that would be more difficult to obtain with a French orchestra?
FXR: That’s an excellent question. Zimmermann was well acquainted with the Gürzenich Orchestra, as well as many other German orchestras, which have, I would say, a slightly darker sound culture than French ones. It’s no coincidence that he used the brass and percussion group in a specific way. It corresponds to a German sonic aesthetic.
Moreover, German orchestras have a different relationship to rhythm compared to French orchestras. In France, the focus is on the precision of solfège [concerned with musical pitch], which is criticised today but is an extraordinary tool. It’s a kind of rhetorical virtuosity for interpreting and understanding music. In Germany, traditional solfège with note names isn’t used, which influences their relationship to rhythm. In France, there’s a very precise sharpness, while in Germany, though precision is also present, there’s a difference in the approach to rhythm.
However, I must emphasise that this work can be performed by any orchestra because it transcends mere national culture. It is universal.
ALL: One last question: is there a certain continuity between Wozzeck and Die Soldaten? What comes after Die Soldaten?
FXR: It must be said that in the 1960s, there weren’t many who were still betting on the form of opera. Zimmermann’s Die Soldaten is almost an accident because at that time, opera was truly condemned by the avant-garde. One could certainly find interest in replaying the works of Wagner, Richard Strauss, or bel canto for those who were interested, but there wasn’t really a future for this artistic form. One can certainly perceive a lineage with Wozzeck, as well as with Pelléas et Mélisande, in this new way of redefining the genre, the form, and telling a theatrical story, by mobilising resources to create a unique musical and theatrical work.
As for what this has spawned, I often think that one of the composers who has managed to catch the ball and reinvent the genre is perhaps Georges Benjamin, with his own codes and music. He has also opened a new chapter in the history of opera.
However, I have also recently conducted Ligeti’s Le Grand Macabre which has no relation to Die Soldaten except that it is also a work that, on the one hand, buried the genre and, on the other hand, completely regenerated it.
I think in some ways, it’s difficult to create something afterward. It’s very interesting to see how the work ends with this last note, this D that concludes the work. This note has a function of death in Zimmermann’s music. There is nothing after Die Soldaten and it doesn’t matter. I think there are works like this where one says that after this, one can only do something differently, something else. The way Zimmermann managed to depict the abysses of humanity, our suffering, and our despair as human beings, I believe we can’t go much further.
However, there is always hope…
A very thoughtful interview.
Thanks for posting.
Jonathan Dunsby